If one is to withdraw oneself, why is there the world?

Devotee:  If one is to withdraw oneself, why is there the world?

Ramana Maharishi:  Where is the world and where does one go withdrawing oneself? Does one fly in an aeroplane beyond space? Is it withdrawal? The fact is this: the world is only an idea. What do you say: Are you within the world or is the world within you?

Devotee:  I am in the world. I am part of it.

Ramana Maharishi:  That is the mistake. If the world were to exist apart from you, does it come and tell you that it exists? No, you see it exists. You see it when you are awake and not when asleep. If it exists apart from you, it must tell you so and you must be aware of it even in your sleep.

Devotee:  I became aware of it in my jagrat.

Ramana Maharishi:  Do you become aware of yourself and then of the world? Or do you become aware of the world and then of yourself? Or do you become aware of both simultaneously?

Devotee:  I must say simultaneously.

Ramana Maharishi:  Were you or were you not, before becoming aware of yourself? Do you admit your continued existence before and when you become aware of the world?

Devotee:  Yes.

Ramana Maharishi:  If always existing yourself, why are you not aware of the world in sleep if it exists apart from the Self?

Devotee:  I become aware of myself and of the world also.

Ramana Maharishi:  So you become aware of yourself. Who becomes aware of whom? Are there two selves?

Devotee:  No.

Ramana Maharishi:  So you see that it is wrong to suppose that awareness has passing phases. The Self is always aware. When the Self identifies itself as the seer it sees objects. The creation of the subject and the object is the creation of the world. Subjects and objects are creations in Pure Consciousness. You see pictures moving on the screen in a cinema show. When you are intent on the pictures you are not aware of the screen. But the pictures cannot be seen without the screen behind. The world stands for the pictures and Consciousness stands for the screen. The Consciousness is pure. It is the same as the Self which is eternal and unchanging. Get rid of the subject and object

and Pure Consciousness will alone remain.

Devotee:  But why did Pure Brahman become Isvara and manifest the universe if He did not mean it?

Ramana Maharishi:  Did Brahman or Isvara tell you so? You say that Brahman became Isvara, and so on. This too you did not say in your sleep. Only in your jagrat state you speak of Brahman, Isvara and universe. The jagrat state is a duality of subject and object - owing to the rise of thoughts. So they are your thought creations.

Devotee:  But the world exists in my sleep even though I am not aware.

Ramana Maharishi:  What is the proof of its existence?

Devotee:  Others are aware of it.

Ramana Maharishi:  Do they say so to you when you are in sleep or do you become aware of others who see the world in your sleep?

Devotee:  No, but God is always aware.

Ramana Maharishi:  Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness.