Renunciation is non-identification of the Self with the non-self.

Devotee:  Is not samsara a hindrance? Do not all the holy books advocate renunciation?

Ramana Maharishi:  Samsara is only in your mind. The world does not speak out, saying ‘I am the world’. Otherwise, it must be ever there - not excluding your sleep. Since it is not in sleep it is impermanent. Being impermanent it has no stamina. Having no stamina it is easily subdued by the Self. The Self alone is permanent. Renunciation is non-identification of the Self with the non-self. On the disappearance of ignorance the non-self ceases to exist. That is true renunciation

See for whom these doubts exist. Who is the doubter? Who is the thinker?

Devotee:  I shall be more definite. Though a stranger, I am obliged to confess the cause of my anxiety. I am blessed with children. A boy - a good brahmachari - passed away in February. I was grief-stricken. I was disgusted with this life. I want to devote myself to spiritual life. But my duties as a grihini do not permit me to lead a retired life. Hence my doubt.


Ramana Maharishi:  Retirement means abidance in the Self. Nothing more. It is not leaving one set of surroundings and getting entangled in another set, nor even leaving the concrete world and becoming involved in a mental world. The birth of the son, his death, etc., are seen in the Self only…….
Whatever is born is bound to die. Kill the ego: there is no fear of recurring death for what is once dead. The Self remains even after the death of the ego. That is Bliss - that is Immortality.



Devotee:   How is that to be done?


Ramana Maharishi:   See for whom these doubts exist. Who is the doubter? Who is the thinker? That is the ego. Hold it. The other thoughts will die away. The ego is left pure; see where from the ego arises. That is pure consciousness.



Devotee:   It seems difficult. May we proceed by bhakti marga?


Ramana Maharishi:   It is according to individual temperament and equipment. Bhakti is the same as vichara.

What prevents you from being your own Self?

Devotee:  I am young and a grihini (housewife). There are duties of grihastha dharma (the household). Is devotion consistent with such a position?


Ramana Maharishi:  Certainly. What are you? You are not the body. You are Pure Consciousness. Grihastha dharma and the world are only phenomena appearing on that Pure Consciousness. It remains unaffected. What prevents you from being your own Self?

Take care of the present, the future will take care of itself

Devotee:  What is the best thing to do for ensuring the future?


Ramana Maharishi:  Take care of the present, the future will take care of itself.


Devotee:  The future is the result of the present. So, what should I do to make it good? Or should I keep still?


Ramana Maharishi:  Whose is the doubt? Who is it that wants a course of action? Find the doubter. If you hold the doubter the doubts will disappear. Having lost hold of the Self the thoughts afflict you; the world is seen, doubts arise, also anxiety for the future. Hold fast to the Self, these will disappear.

Desire arises only after the rise of the ego; and this ego owes its origin to a Higher Power on which its existence depends

Ramana Maharishi:   Man owes his movements to another Power, whereas he thinks that he does everything himself - just like a lame man bluffing that, were he helped to stand up, he would fight and chase away the enemy. Action is impelled by desire; desire arises only after the rise of the ego; and this ego owes its origin to a Higher Power on which its existence depends. It cannot remain apart. Why then prattle, “I do, I act, or I function”? A Self-realised being cannot help benefiting the world. His very existence is the highest good.

Do you go out of the Self? What is meant by giving up?

Devotee:  “Should anyone desirous of spiritual progress take to action or renunciation (pravritti-marga or nivritti-marga)?”


Ramana Maharishi:  Do you go out of the Self? What is meant by giving up?

The karma which takes place without effort, i.e., involuntary action, is not binding.

Devotee:  Jiva is said to be bound by karma. Is it so?



Ramana Maharishi:  Let karma enjoy its fruits. As long as you are the doer so long are you the enjoyer.



Devotee: How to get released from karma?


Ramana Maharishi:  See whose karma it is. You will find you are not the doer. Then you will be free. This requires grace of God for which you should pray to Him, worship Him and meditate on Him. The karma which takes place without effort, i.e., involuntary action, is not binding. Even a Jnani is acting as seen by his bodily movements. There can be no karma without effort or without intentions (sankalpas). Therefore there are sankalpas for all. They are of two kinds (1) one, binding - bandha-hetu and the other (2) mukti-hetu - not binding. The former must be given up and the latter must be cultivated. There is no fruit without previous karma; no karma without previous  sankalpa. Even mukti must be the result of effort so long as the sense of doership persists.

Let action complete itself. So long as there is the doer he must reap the fruits of his action.

Ramana Maharishi:  A Self-Realised sage (Atma Jnani) alone can be a good Karma yogi. “After the sense of doership has gone let us see what happens. Sri Sankara advised inaction. But did he not write commentaries and take part in disputation? Do not trouble about doing action or otherwise. Know Thyself. Then let us see whose action it is. Whose is it? Let action complete itself. So long as there is the doer he must reap the fruits of his action. If he does not think himself the doer there is no action for him. He is an ascetic who has renounced worldly life (sanyasin).”

Action without desire - is superior to knowledge with practice

Ramana Maharishi:   “Knowledge without practice accompanying it is superior to practice without knowledge. Practice with knowledge is superior to knowledge without practice accompanying it. Karmaphala tyagah Nishkama karma as of a Jnani - action without desire - is superior to knowledge with practice.”

Be the Self and that is Bliss

Devotee:  Why do I feel unhappy when I am in Vellore and feel peace in Your Presence?

Ramana Maharishi:  Can this feeling in this place be Bliss? When you leave the place you say you are unhappy. Therefore this peace is not permanent, nay it is mixed with unhappiness which is felt in another place. Therefore you cannot find Bliss in places and in periods of time. It must be permanent in order that it may be useful. Such permanent being is yourself. Be the Self and that is Bliss. You are always That. You say that you left Vellore, travelled in the train, arrived in Tiruvannamalai, entered the hall and found happiness. When you go back you are not happy in Vellore. Now, do you really move from place to place? Even considering you to be the body, the body sits in a cart at the gate of the home, the cart moves on to the railway station. Then it gets into a railway carriage which speeds on from Vellore to Tiruvannamalai. There it gets into another cart which brings the body here. Yet when you are asked, you say that you travelled all the way from Vellore. Your body remains where it was and all the places went past it. Such ideas are due to the false identity which is so deep-rooted.

The truth is that the world appears as a passing shadow in a flood of light.

A. W. Chadwick is copying the English translation of the Tamil Kaivalya Navaneeta. When he came across some technical terms in it and felt some difficulty in understanding them, he asked Sri Bhagavan about them.

Ramana Maharishi:   “Those portions deal with theories of creation. They are not material because the Srutis do not mean to set forth such theories. They mention the theories casually so that the enquirer may please himself if he be so inclined. The truth is that the world appears as a passing shadow in a flood of light. Light is necessary to see that shadow also. The shadow does not deserve any special notice, analysis or discussion. The book deals with the Self and that is its purpose. The discussions on creation may be omitted for the present.” 


Later, Sri Bhagavan continued: “The Vedanta says that the cosmos springs into view simultaneously with the seer. There is no detailed process of creation. This is said to be yugapat srshti (instantaneous creation). It is quite similar to the creations in dream where the experiencer springs up simultaneously with the objects of experience. When this is told, some people are not satisfied for they are so rooted in objective knowledge. They seek to find out how there can be sudden creation. They argue that an effect must be preceded by a cause. In short, they desire an explanation for the existence of the world which they see around them. Then the Srutis try to satisfy their curiosity by such theories of creation. This method of dealing with the subject of creation is called krama srshti (gradual creation). But the true seeker can be content with yugapat srshti - instantaneous creation.”

You are now thinking that you are the mind or the body which are both changing and transient. But you are unchanging and eternal.

Devotee:  I was reading Sri Bhagavata; it says that Bliss can be had only by the dust of the Master’s feet. I pray for Grace.


Ramana Maharishi:  What is Bliss but your own being? You are not apart from Being which is the same as Bliss. You are now thinking that you are the mind or the body which are both changing and transient. But you are unchanging and eternal. That is what you should know.


Devotee:  It is darkness and I am ignorant.


Ramana Maharishi:  This ignorance must go. Again, who says ‘I am ignorant’? He must be the witness of ignorance. That is what you are. Socrates said, “I know that I do not know.” Can it be ignorance? It is wisdom.

Your body, the society, the forest and the ways are all in you; you are not in them.

Devotee:  But I am obliged to move in society.


Ramana Maharishi:  Society is also an idea similar to that of the forest.



Devotee:  I leave my home and go and mix in society.


Ramana Maharishi:  Who does it?



Devotee:  The body moves and does all.


Ramana Maharishi:  Quite so. Now that you identify yourself with the body you feel the trouble. The trouble is in your mind. You think that you are the body or that you are the mind. But there are occasions when you are free from both. For example in deep slumber, you create a body and a world in your dream. That represents your mental activities. In your waking state you think that you are the body and then the idea of forest and the rest arise. Now, consider the situation. You are an unchanging and continuous being who remains in all these states which are constantly changing and therefore transient. But you are always there. It follows that these fleeting objects are mere phenomena which appear on your being like pictures which move across a screen. The screen does not move when the picture moves. Similarly, you do not move from where you are even when the body leaves the home and mixes in society. Your body, the society, the forest and the ways are all in you; you are not in them. You are the body also but not this body only. If you remain as your pure Self, the body and its movements need not affect you.

You are as you are and yet you speak of a forest and ways.

Devotee:  “I seem to be wandering in a forest because I do not find the way.”


Ramana Maharishi:  This idea of being in a forest must go. It is such ideas which are at the root of the trouble.


Devotee:  But I do not find the way.


Ramana Maharishi:   Where is the forest and where is the way unless they are in you? You are as you are and yet you speak of a forest and ways.

The ego, the world and the individuals are all due to the person’s vasanas.

Ramana Maharishi:  Multiplicity of individuals is a moot point with most persons. A jiva is only the light reflected on the ego. The person identifies himself with the ego and argues that there must be more like him. He is not easily convinced of the absurdity of his position. Does a man who sees many individuals in his dream persist in believing them to be real and enquire after them when he wakes up? This argument does not convince the disputant. Again, there is the moon. Let anyone look at her from any place at any time; she is the same moon. Everyone knows it. Now suppose that there are several receptacles of water reflecting the moon. The images are all different from one another and from the moon herself. If one of the receptacles falls to pieces, that reflection disappears. Its disappearance does not affect the real moon or the other reflections. It is similar with an individual attaining Liberation. He alone is liberated. The sectarian of multiplicity makes this his argument against non-duality. “If the Self is single, if one man is liberated, that means that all souls are liberated. In practice it is not so. Therefore Advaita is not correct.” The weakness in the argument is that the reflected light of the Self is mistaken for the original Light of the Self. The ego, the world and the individuals are all due to the person’s vasanas. When they perish, that person’s hallucinations disappear, that is to say one pitcher is broken and the relative reflection is at an end. The fact is that the Self is never bound. There can therefore be no Release for It. All the troubles are for the ego only.

Is it necessary to take to sanyasa for Self-Realisation?

Devotee:  Is it necessary to take to sanyasa for Self-Realisation?


Ramana Maharishi:  Sanyasa is to renounce one’s individuality. This is not the same as tonsure and ochre robes. A man may be a grihi; yet, if he does not think he is a grihi, he is a sanyasi. On the contrary a man may wear ochre robes and wander about: yet if he thinks he is a sanyasi he is not that. To think of sanyasa defeats its own purpose.
Sri Bhagavan remarked:  People see the world. The perception implies the existence of a seer and the seen. The objects are alien to the seer. The seer is intimate, being the Self. They do not however turn their attention to finding out the obvious seer but run about analysing the seen. The more the mind expands, the farther it goes and renders Self-Realisation more difficult and complicated. The man must directly see the seer and realise the Self.

It(Dream) is due to the samskaras (impressions) of the jagrat (waking) state.

Devotee:  The dream world is not purposeful as the jagrat world, because we do not feel that wants are satisfied.


Ramana Maharishi:  You are not right. There are thirst and hunger in dream also. You might have had your fill and kept over the remaining food for the next day. Nevertheless you feel hungry in dream. This food does not help you. Your dream-hunger can be satisfied only by eating dream-food. Dream-wants are satisfied by dream-creations only.


Devotee:  We recollect our dreams in our jagrat but not vice-versa.


Ramana Maharishi:  Not right again. In the dream you identify yourself with the one now speaking.


Devotee:  But we do not know that we are dreaming as apart from waking as we do now.


Ramana Maharishi:  The dream is the combination of jagrat and sushupti. It is due to the samskaras of the jagrat state. Hence we remember dreams at present. Samskaras are not formed contrariwise; therefore also we are not aware of the dream and jagrat simultaneously. Still everyone will recollect strange perplexities in dream. One wonders if he dreams or is awake. He argues and determines that he is only awake. When really awake, he finds that it was all only a dream.

Maya is only Isvara-Sakti or the activity of Reality.

Devotee:  In the Vyavaharika, above mentioned, how does maya come in?


Ramana Maharishi:  Maya is only Isvara-Sakti or the activity of Reality.


Devotee:  Why does it become active?


Ramana Maharishi:  How can this question arise? You are yourself within its fold. Are you standing apart from that universal activity in order to ask this question? The same Power is raising this doubt in order that all doubts may finally cease.

Kill the jiva and there is no pain or pleasure but the mental bliss persists forever.

Ramana Maharishi:  Creation is to be considered in its two aspects, Isvara srishti (God’s creation) and jiva srishti (individual’s creation). Of these two, the universe is the former, and its relation to the individual is the latter. It is the latter which gives rise to pain and pleasure, irrespective of the former. A story was mentioned from Panchadasi. There were two young men in a village in South India. They went on a pilgrimage to North India. One of them died. The survivor, who was earning something, decided to return only after some months. In the meantime he came across a wandering pilgrim whom he asked to convey the information regarding himself and his dead companion  to the village in South India. The wandering pilgrim did so, but by mistake changed the names. The result was that the dead man’s parents rejoiced in his safety and the living one’s parents were in grief. Thus, you see, pain or pleasure has no reference to facts but to mental conceptions. Jiva Srishti is responsible for it. Kill the jiva and there is no pain or pleasure but the mental bliss persists forever. Killing the jiva is to abide in the Self.

You are only in your natural state whether you make abhyasa or not.

Devotee:  Are all in liberation?


Ramana Maharishi:  Where is all? There is no liberation either. It could be only if there was bondage. There was really no bondage and so, it follows, there is no liberation.


Devotee:   But to evolve through births, there must be practice, years of abhyasa.


Ramana Maharishi:  Abhyasa is only to prevent any disturbance to the inherent peace. There is no question of years. Prevent this thought at this moment. You are only in your natural state whether you make abhyasa or not.


Devotee:   Why do not all realise the Self in that case?


Ramana Maharishi:  It is the same question in another guise. Why do you raise this question? Inasmuch as you raise this question of abhyasa it shows you require abhyasa. Make it. But to remain without questions or doubts is the natural state. God created man; and man created God. They both are the originators of forms and names only. In fact, neither God nor man was created.

The Self is only one.

The American gentleman is a little hard of hearing. Being accustomed to be self-reliant from his youth he naturally feels worried on account of his hearing becoming defective.


Ramana Maharishi:  You were not self-reliant; you were ego-reliant. It is good that ego-reliance is banished and that you become truly Self-reliant. Again Bhagavan said: “There is no cause for worry. Subjugation of senses is a necessary preliminary for Self-Realisation. One sense is subdued for you by God Himself. So much the better.”


The questioner said that he appreciated the humour, but that still his self-respect suffered.


Ramana Maharishi:  The Self is only one. Do you feel hurt if you blame yourself or scorn yourself for your errors? If you hold the Self there is no second person to scorn you. When you see the world you have lost hold of the Self. On the contrary, hold the Self and the world will not appear.

Visions are not external. They appear only internally.

Ramana Maharishi:  Visions are not external. They appear only internally. If external they must assert themselves without there being a seer. In that case what is the warranty for their existence? The seer only.

‘No want’ is the greatest bliss. It can be realised only by experience

Sri Bhagavan said that Tatva Rayar was the first to pour forth Advaita philosophy in Tamil. He had said that the Earth was his bed, his hands were his plates for taking food, the loin cloth was his clothing and thus there was no want for him. In Maharaja Turavu (the renunciation of the king) he says: He was seated on the bare ground, the earth was his seat, the mind was the chamara; the sky was the canopy; and renunciation was his spouse: Then Sri Bhagavan continued: I had no cloth spread on the floor in earlier days. I used to sit on the floor and lie on the ground. That is freedom. The sofa is a bondage. It is a gaol for me. I am not allowed to sit where and how I please. Is it not bondage?  One must be free to do as one pleases, and should not be served by others. ‘No want’ is the greatest bliss. It can be realised only by experience. Even an emperor is no match for a man with no want. The emperor has got vassals under him. But the other man is not aware of anyone beside the Self. Which is better?

The background of the mode is the ‘I’ in which the mind modes arise and sink.

Devotee:  With every thought the subject and the object appear and disappear. Does not the ‘I’ disappear when the subject disappears thus? If that be so how can the quest of the ‘I’ proceed?


Ramana Maharishi:  The subject (knower) is only a mode of mind. Though the mode (vritti) passes, the reality behind it does not cease. The background of the mode is the ‘I’ in which the mind modes arise and sink.

The enquiry into the Self is inclusive of all, faith, devotion, jnana, yoga and all.

Devotee:  Is the enquiry into the Self the same as the above mentioned faith?


Ramana Maharishi:  The enquiry into the Self is inclusive of all, faith, devotion, jnana, yoga and all.

The objects can be differentiated by means of their names and forms, whereas each one’s name is only one and that is ‘I’

Ramana Maharishi:  The mind remaining still is samadhi, no matter whether the world is perceived or not. Environment, time and objects are all in me. How can they be independent of me? They may change, but I remain unchanging, always the same. The objects can be differentiated by means of their names and forms, whereas each one’s name is only one and that is ‘I’. Ask anyone, he says ‘I’ and speaks of himself as ‘I’, even if He is Isvara. His name too is ‘I’ only. So also of a locality. As long as I am identified with the body so long a locality is distinguishable; otherwise not. Am I the body? Does the body announce itself as ‘I’? Clearly all these are in me. All these wiped out entirely, the residual Peace is ‘I’. This is samadhi, this is ‘I’.

To know that the Self remains happy in its perfection is Self-Realisation

Ramana Maharishi:  So ‘I’ was in sleep, if the world was then there, did it say that it existed?


Devotee:  No. But the world tells me its existence now. Even if I deny its existence, I may knock myself against a stone and hurt my foot. The injury proves the existence of the stone and so of the world.


Ramana Maharishi:  Quite so. The stone hurts the foot. Does the foot say that there is the stone?


Devotee:  No. - ‘I’.


Ramana Maharishi:  Who is this ‘I’? It cannot be the body nor the mind as we have seen before. This ‘I’ is the one who experiences the waking, dream and sleep states. The three states are changes which do not affect the individual. The experiences are like pictures passing on a screen in the cinema. The appearance and disappearance of the pictures do not affect the screen. So also, the three states alternate with one another leaving the Self unaffected. The waking and the dream states are creations of the mind. So the Self covers all. To know that the Self remains happy in its perfection is Self-Realisation. Its use lies in the realisation of Perfection and thus of Happiness.

The goal must be eternal and within. Find it within yourself

Devotee:  Have you reached the goal?


Ramana Maharishi:  The goal cannot be anything apart from the Self nor can it be something to be gained afresh. If that were so, such goal cannot be abiding and permanent. What appears anew will also disappear. The goal must be eternal and within. Find it within yourself

Can the world be apart from you?

Ramana Maharishi:  Real waking lies beyond the plane of differences.


Devotee:  What is the state of the world then?



Ramana Maharishi:   Does the world come and tell you “I exist”?


Devotee:   No. But the people in the world tell me that the world needs spiritual, social and moral regeneration.


Ramana Maharishi:  You see the world and the people in it. They are your thoughts. Can the world be apart from you?

The space, the magnitudes and the paradox are all in the mind only.

Ramana Maharishi:  When a man dreams, he creates himself (i.e., the ahamkar, the seer) and the surroundings. All of them are later withdrawn into himself. The one became many, along with the seer. Similarly also, the one becomes many in the waking state. The objective world is really subjective. An astronomer discovers a new star at immeasurable distance and announces that its light takes thousands of light years to reach the earth. Well, where is the star in fact? Is it not in the observer? But people wonder how a huge globe, larger than the Sun, at such a distance can be contained in the brain-cells of a man. The space, the magnitudes and the paradox are all in the mind only. How do they exist there?  Inasmuch as you become aware of them, you must admit a light which illumines them. These thoughts are absent in sleep but rise up on waking. So this light is transient, having an origin and an end. The consciousness of ‘I’ is permanent and continuous. So this cannot be the aforesaid light. It is different but has no independent existence. Therefore it must be abhasa (reflected light). The light in the brain is thus reflected knowledge (abhasa samvit) or reflected being (abhasa sat). The true knowledge (Samvit) or Being (Sat) is in the centre called Heart (Hridaya). When one wakes up from sleep it is reflected in the head, and so the head is no longer lying prone but rises up. From there the consciousness spreads all over the body and so the superimposed ‘I’ functions as the wakeful entity. The pure light in the brain is suddha manas (the pure mind) which later becomes contaminated and is malina manas, the one ordinarily found. All these are however contained in the Self. The body and its counterparts are in the Self. The Self is not confined in the body, as is commonly supposed.

How do you infer your existence?

Ramana Maharishi:  Do you deny your existence in sleep?


Devotee:  I must admit it by my reasoning.


Ramana Maharishi:  How do you infer your existence?


Devotee:  By reasoning and experience.


Ramana Maharishi:  Is reasoning necessary for experience? (Laughter)

Distractions result from inherited tendencies. Can they be cast off too?

Devotee:  Distractions result from inherited tendencies. Can they be cast off too?


Ramana Maharishi:  Yes. Many have done so. Believe it! They did so because they believed they could. Vasanas (predispositions) can be obliterated. It is done by concentration on that which is free from vasanas and yet is their core.


Devotee:  How long is the practice to continue?


Ramana Maharishi:  Till success is achieved and until yoga-liberation becomes permanent. Success begets success. If one distraction is conquered the next is conquered and so on, until all are finally conquered. The process is like reducing an enemy’s fort by slaying its man-power - one by one, as each issues out.


Devotee:  What is the goal of this process?


Ramana Maharishi:  Realising the Real.

Are there any aids to (1) concentration and (2) casting off distractions?

Devotee:  Are there any aids to (1) concentration and (2) casting off distractions?

Ramana Maharishi:  Physically the digestive and other organs are kept free from irritation. Therefore food is regulated both in quantity and quality. Non-irritants are eaten, avoiding chillies, excess of salt, onions, wine, opium, etc. Avoid constipation, drowsiness and excitement, and all foods which induce them. Mentally take interest in one thing and fix the mind on it. Let such interest be all-absorbing to the exclusion of everything else. This is dispassion (vairagya) and concentration. God or mantra may be chosen. The mind gains strength to grasp the subtle and merge into it.

What is the interrelation between regulation of thought and regulation of breath?

Devotee:  What is the interrelation between regulation of thought and regulation of breath?


Ramana Maharishi:  Thought (intellectual) and respiration, circulation, etc. (vegetative) activities are both different aspects of the same - the individual life.  Both depend upon (or metaphorically ‘reside’ or ‘inhere’ in) life. Personality and other ideas spring from it like the vital activity. If respiration or other vital activity is forcibly repressed, thought  also is repressed. If thought is forcibly slowed down and pinned to a point, the vital activity of respiration is slowed down, made even and confined to the lowest level compatible with life. In both cases the distracting variety of thought is temporarily at an end.  The interaction is noticeable in other ways also. Take the will to live. That is thought-power. That sustains and keeps up life when other vitality is almost exhausted and delays death. In the absence of such will-power death is accelerated. So thought is said to carry life with it in the flesh and from one fleshy body to another.

Impurities of limitation, ignorance and desire place obstacles in the way of meditation. How to conquer them?

Devotee:  Impurities of limitation, ignorance and desire (anava, mayika, and kamya) place obstacles in the way of meditation. How to conquer them?


Ramana Maharishi:  Not to be swayed by them.



Devotee:  Grace is necessary.


Ramana Maharishi:  Yes, Grace is both the beginning and the end. Introversion is due to Grace: Perseverance is Grace; and Realisation is Grace. That is the reason for the statement: Mamekam saranam vraja (only surrender to Me). If one has entirely surrendered oneself is there any part left to ask for Grace? He is swallowed up by Grace.

How to gain Divine Grace?

Devotee:  How to gain Divine Grace?



Ramana Maharishi:  By surrender.


Devotee:  Still I do not feel Grace.


Ramana Maharishi:  Sincerity is wanting. Surrender should not be verbal nor conditional. Passages from St. Justinian were read out to illustrate these statements. Prayer is not verbal. It is from the heart. To merge into the Heart is prayer. That is also Grace. The Alwar says: “I was all along seeking Thee. But on realising the Self I find you are the Self. The Self is my all, and so you are my All.”

It is necessary to experience the Reality now in life in order that it may be experienced at death.

Ramana Maharishi:  It is said in the Bhagavad Gita, Ch. VIII, that whatever may be the last thought at death, it determines the later birth of the person. It is necessary to experience the Reality now in life in order that it may be experienced at death. See if this moment be different from the last one, and try to be in that desired state.

Can anything be more immediate and intimate than the Self?

Devotee:  Nirguna upasana is said to be difficult and risky. He quoted the verse from Sri Bhagavad Gita, avyaktahi etc. (the manifest, etc.)

Ramana Maharishi:  What is manifest is considered to be unmanifest and doubt is created. Can anything be more immediate and intimate than the Self?  Can anything be more plain?

Find the ‘I’ and see later what further knowledge is required.

Devotee:  I want knowledge.

Ramana Maharishi:  Who wants knowledge?

Devotee:  I want it.

Ramana Maharishi:   Who is that ‘I’? Find the ‘I’ and see later what further knowledge is required.

Is there anyone who denies his own existence?

Devotee:  But thinking is necessary even for realisation.

Ramana Maharishi:  That thinking is aimed at the elimination of all thinking.

Devotee:  Owing to my ignorance, I do not realise the Absolute Existence-Consciousness.

Ramana Maharishi:   Who is the ‘I’? Whose is the ignorance! Answers to these questions will alone suffice to prove that you are already realised. Is there anyone who denies his own existence? Or can anyone say that he did not exist in his sleep? Pure Existence is thus admitted. The admission also implies consciousness. Thus all men are realised. There is no ignorant man at all.

The direct method of attack is not to depend on invisible hypotheses but to ask “Whose Karma is it? Or whose body?”

Devotee:  How did I get this body?


Ramana Maharishi:  You speak of ‘I’ and the ‘body’. There is the relationship between the two. You are not therefore the body. The question does not occur to the body because it is inert. There is an occasion when you are not aware of the body - namely, in deep sleep. The question does not arise then. Nevertheless you are there in sleep. To whom does the question arise now?
………
Sri Bhagavan added after a few minutes: The answer, according to sastras, will be that the body is due to karma. The question will be  how did karma arise? We must say “from a previous body” and so on without end. The direct method of attack is not to depend on invisible hypotheses but to ask “Whose Karma is it? Or whose body?” Hence I answered in this manner. This is more purposeful.

Be yourself. That is all.

Ramana Maharishi:  You say ‘I AM’. That is it. What else can say I AM? One’s own being is His Power. The trouble arises only when one says, “I am this or that, such and such.” Do not do it - Be yourself. That is all.

Bliss consists in not forgetting your being.

Devotee:   But Bliss must be experienced.


Ramana Maharishi:  Bliss consists in not forgetting your being. How can you be otherwise than what you really are? It is also to be the Seat of Love. Love is Bliss. Here the Seat is not different from Love.

The Self always remains actionless, whereas thoughts arise and subside.

Devotee:  Maharshi advises that the mind should be divested of thoughts.

Ramana Maharishi:  This is itself a thought.

Devotee:  When all thoughts disappear what remains over?

Ramana Maharishi:  Is the mind different from thoughts?

Devotee:  No. The mind is made up of thoughts. My point is this: When all thoughts are got rid of, how shall I concentrate the mind?

Ramana Maharishi:  Is not this also a thought?

Devotee:  Yes, but I am advised to concentrate.

Ramana Maharishi:   Why should you concentrate? Why should you not allow your thoughts free play?

Devotee:  The sastras say that the thoughts, thus playing free, lead us astray, that is, to unreal and changeful things.

Ramana Maharishi:   So then, you want not to be led to unreal and changeful things. Your thoughts are unreal and changeful. You want to hold the Reality. That is exactly what I say. The thoughts are unreal. Get rid of them.

Devotee:  I understand now. Yet there is a doubt. “Not a trice can you remain inactive.” How shall I be able to rid myself of thoughts?

Ramana Maharishi:  The same Gita says: “Although all actions take place, I am not the doer.” It is
like the sun towards the world activities. The Self always remains actionless, whereas thoughts arise and subside. The Self is Perfection; it is immutable; the mind is limited and changeful. You need only to cast off your limitations. Your perfection thus stands revealed.

Be free from thoughts. Do not hold on to anything. They do not hold you. Be yourself.

Devotee:  The sastras want us to concentrate and I cannot do so.


Ramana Maharishi:  Through what sastras have we known our existence?


Devotee:  It is a matter of experience. But I want to concentrate.


Ramana Maharishi:  Be free from thoughts. Do not hold on to anything. They do not hold you. Be yourself.

Mind is tangible to you. Hold the mind and it will do.

Devotee:  What is thought-force, mesmerism, etc.? There was a doctor in Paris called Dr. Coue. He was illiterate, but yet was able to cure many incurable diseases by will-force. He used to say: Generate power to cure yourself. The power is within you.


Ramana Maharishi:  It is through the same will-power that the seat of all diseases, the body, has risen.


Devotee:  So it is said thoughts manifest as objects.


Ramana Maharishi:  This thought must be for mukti (liberation).


Devotee:  God must enable us to get rid of the other thoughts.


Ramana Maharishi:  This is again a thought. Let that which has incarnated raise the question. You are not that because you are free from thoughts.


Devotee:  The Atman is formless. How shall I concentrate on it?


Ramana Maharishi:  Leave alone the Atman which you say is formless or intangible. Mind is tangible to you. Hold the mind and it will do.

One’s meditation or concentration is meant to get rid of obstacles and not to gain the Self.

Ramana Maharishi:  This thought, ‘I am not able to concentrate,’ is itself an obstacle. Why should the thought arise? Your nature is Peace and Happiness. Thoughts are the obstacles to realisation. One’s meditation or concentration is meant to get rid of obstacles and not to gain the Self. Does anyone remain apart from the Self? No! The true nature of the Self is declared to be Peace. If the same peace is not found, the non-finding is only a thought which is alien to the Self. One practises meditation only to get rid of these alien fancies. So, then, a thought must be quelled as soon as it rises. Whenever a thought arises, do not be carried away by it. You become aware of the body when you forget the Self. But can you forget the Self? Being the Self how can you forget it? There must be two selves for one to forget the other. It is absurd. So the Self is not depressed; it is not imperfect: it is ever happy. The contrary feeling is a mere thought which has actually no stamina in it. Be rid of thoughts. Why should one attempt meditation? Being the Self one remains always realised, only be free from thoughts. You think that your health does not permit your meditation. This depression must be traced to its origin. The origin is the wrong identification of the body with the Self. The disease is not of the Self. It is of the body. But the body does not come and tell you that it is possessed by the disease. It is you who say it. Why? Because you have wrongly identified yourself with the body. The body itself is a thought. Be as you really are. There is no reason to be depressed

Do you remain apart from Self that you speak of yourself as Its modification?

Devotee:  It is said that individuals are modifications of the Self, just as ornaments are of gold.


Ramana Maharishi:  When a man speaks in terms of ornaments ignoring their substance gold, he is told that they are gold. But here the man is consciousness and speaks of himself as its modification. Do you remain apart from Self that you speak of yourself as Its modification?


Devotee:  Cannot gold be imagined to say that it has become an ornament?


Ramana Maharishi:  Being insentient, it does not say so. But the individual is sentient and cannot function apart from consciousness. The Self is Pure Consciousness. Yet the man identifies himself with the body which is itself insentient and does not say “I am the body” of its own accord. Someone else says so. The unlimited Self does not.  Who else is he that says so? A spurious ‘I’ arises between the Pure Consciousness and the insentient body and imagines itself limited to the body. Seek this and it will vanish as a phantom. That phantom is the ego, or the mind or the individuality. All the sastras are based on the rise of this phantom, whose elimination is their purpose. The present state is mere illusion. Disillusionment is the goal and nothing more.

Are you ever divorced from the Self?

Devotee:  When I travel from Calcutta to Madras I must know Madras so that I may not alight at an intermediate station out of ignorance. There are the sign boards and the timetable to guide me in my travel. But what is the guide in my search for the Self?


Ramana Maharishi:  It is all right for the journey. You know how far away you are from Madras. Can you tell me how far away you are from the Self in order that you should seek it?



Devotee:   I do not know.


Ramana Maharishi:  Are you ever divorced from the Self? Is it possible to be divorced? Are not all these alien to you and the Self the most intimate? Where should you go to gain the Self?



Devotee:   I am now away from the Self. I must retrace my steps in order to regain it.


Ramana Maharishi:  How far away? Who says that he is apart? Can there be two selves?

All are comprised in ‘I’.

Ramana Maharishi:  You seek the confirmation from others. Each one though addressed as ‘you’, styles himself ‘I’. The confirmation is only from ‘I’. There is no ‘you’ at all. All are comprised in ‘I’. The other can be known only when the Self is posited. The others do not exist without the subject.

Is there a sixth sense to feel “I AM”?

Devotee:   Is there a sixth sense to feel “I AM”?

Ramana Maharishi:  Do you have it in your sleep? There is only one being functioning through the five senses. Or do you mean that each sense is independent of the Self and there are five selves admitting of a sixth to control them? There is a power working through these five senses. How can you deny the existence of such Power? Do you deny your existence? Do you not remain even in sleep where the body is not perceived? The same ‘I’ continues to be now; so we admit our existence, whether there is the body or not. The senses work periodically. Their work begins and ends. There must be a substratum on which their activities depend. Where do they appear and merge? There must be a single substratum. Were you to say that the single unit is not perceived, it is an admission of its being single: for you say that there is no second one to know it.

Illiteracy is ignorance: education is learned ignorance. Both of them are ignorant of their true aim

Devotee:  Does not education make a sage more useful to the world than illiteracy?


Raman Maharishi:  Even a learned man must bow before the illiterate sage. Illiteracy is ignorance: education is learned ignorance. Both of them are ignorant of their true aim; whereas a sage is not ignorant because there is no aim for him.

Agitation of mind is the cause of desire, the sense of doership and personality. If that is stopped there is quiet.

Devotee:  Grace is necessary for the removal of ignorance.

Ramana Maharishi:  Certainly. But Grace is all along there. Grace is the Self. It is not something to be acquired. All that is necessary is to know its existence. For example, the sun is brightness only. He does not see darkness. Whereas others speak of darkness fleeing away on the sun approaching. Similarly, ignorance also is a phantom and not real. Because of its unreality, its unreal nature being found, it is said to be removed. Again, the sun is there and also bright. You are surrounded by sunlight. Still if you would know the sun you must turn your eyes in his direction and look at him. So also Grace is found by practice alone although it is here and now.

Devotee:  By the desire to surrender constantly, increasing Grace is experienced, I hope.

Ramana Maharishi:  Surrender once for all and be done with the desire. So long as the sense of doership is retained there is the desire; that is also personality. If this goes the Self is found to shine forth pure. The sense of doership is the bondage and not the actions themselves. “Be still and know that I am God.” Here stillness is total surrender without a vestige of individuality. Stillness will prevail and there will be no agitation of mind. Agitation of mind is the cause of desire, the sense of doership and personality. If that is stopped there is quiet. There ‘Knowing’ means ‘Being’. It is not the relative knowledge involving the triads, knowledge, subject and object.

Removal of ignorance is the aim of practice, and not acquisition of Realisation.

Ramana Maharishi:  Removal of ignorance is the aim of practice, and not acquisition of Realisation. Realisation is ever present, here and now. Were it to be acquired anew, Realisation must be understood to be absent at onetime and present at another time. In that case, it is not permanent, and therefore not worth the attempt. But Realisation is permanent  and eternal and is here and now.

The variety must go before unity reveals itself - its reality.

Devotee:  I do not know what happens in sleep. That is the reason I ask now.

Ramana Maharishi:  The question affects the sleeping phase and must be raised there. It does not affect the waking phase and there is no apparent reason for this question. The fact is that you have no limitations in sleep and no question arises. Whereas now you put on limitations, identify yourself with the body and questions of this kind arise.

Devotee:  I understand it, but do not realise it (i.e. unity in variety).

Ramana Maharishi:  Because you are in variety, you say you understand unity - that you have flashes, etc., remember things, etc.; you consider this variety to be real. On the other hand Unity is the reality, and the variety is false. The variety must go before unity reveals itself - its reality. It is always real. It does not send flashes of its being in this false variety. On the contrary, this variety obstructs the truth.

What is not, is always lost; what is, is ever present, here and now.

Ramana Maharishi:  What is not, is always lost; what is, is ever present, here and now. This is the eternal order of things. Example: necklace round the neck.

The mind goes out owing to the habit of looking for happiness outside oneself; but the knowledge that the external objects are not the cause of happiness will keep it in check.

Devotee:  Vichara Sagara relates four obstacles to Self-Realisation.

Ramana Maharishi:  Why only four? Some say they are nine. Sleep is one of them. What is sleep? It is only the obverse of waking. It cannot be independent of waking. Sleep is unalloyed Self. Do not think you are awake: sleep cannot be, nor the three states either. Only forgetting the Self you say you dreamt. Can anything exist in the absence of the Self?

Why do you leave it out and hold the non-self? As the mind tends to go out turn it inwards then and there. It goes out owing to the habit of looking for happiness outside oneself; but the knowledge that the external objects are not the cause of happiness will keep it in check. This is vairagya or dispassion. Only after perfect vairagya the mind becomes steady. The mind is only a mixture of knowledge and ignorance or of sleep and waking. It functions in five ways:
Kshipta (active);
Moodha (dull);
Vikshipta (distracted);
Kashaya (latent); and
Ekagrya (one-pointed).

Of these kashaya is only the latency of tendencies and not the tendencies themselves such as attachment, repulsion, etc. Yourself being ananda (Bliss), why should you enjoy it saying, “Ah! How blissful!” This is rasasvada. During the marriage ceremonies a virgin feels happy as a bride without experiencing the embrace of man: this is rasasvada.

Can the thoughts exist without you?

Ramana Maharishi.: Are you not distinct from thoughts? Do you not exist without them? But can the thoughts exist without you?

Thoughts, good or bad, take you farther and not nearer, because the Self is more intimate than thoughts.

Devotee:   But are not creative thoughts an aspect of Realisation and therefore helpful?

Ramana Maharishi:  Helpful only in the way said before. They must all disappear in the Self. Thoughts, good or bad, take you farther and not nearer, because the Self is more intimate than thoughts. You are Self, whereas the thoughts are alien to the Self.

The body has its birth subsequent to ‘I-thought’. So its birth is secondary. Get rid of the primary cause and the secondary one will disappear by itself.

Ramana Maharishi:  Who is born? Is the Self born? Or is it the body?

Devotee:  It is the body.

Ramana Maharishi:  Then let the body ask how its rebirth may cease.

Devotee:  It will not ask. So I am asking.

Ramana Maharishi:   Whose is the body? You were without it in your deep sleep. After the ‘I-thought’ arose the body arose. The first birth is that of ‘I thought’. The body has its birth subsequent to ‘I-thought’. So its birth is secondary.  Get rid of the primary cause and the secondary one will disappear by itself.

Who is the substratum of the subject and the object? Find it and all problems are solved.

Devotee.:   I understand the general truth of it. But there must be a practical method for it which I call ‘science’.

Ramana Maharishi:  The cessation of such thoughts is the realisation of the Self.

Illustration: the necklace supposed lost. One does not see the world or one’s own body, being away from the Self. Always being the Self, one sees everything else. God and the world are all in the Heart. See the Seer and everything will be found to be the Self. Change your outlook. Look within. Find the Self. Who is the substratum of the subject and the object? Find it and all problems are solved.

Will the work, realised to be not separate from the Self, obstruct the uninterrupted Awareness of the Self?

Devotee:  Sri Bhagavan advises practice of enquiry even when one is engaged in external activities. The finality of such enquiry is the realisation of the Self and consequently breath must stop. If breath should stop, how will work go on or, in other words, how will breath stop when one is working?

Ramana Maharishi:  There is confusion between the means and the end (i.e., sadhana and sadhya). Who is the enquirer? The aspirant and not the siddha.  Enquiry signifies that the enquirer considers himself separate from enquiry. So long as this duality lasts the enquiry must be continued, i.e., until the individuality disappears and the Self is realised to be only the eternal Be-ing (including enquiry and enquirer). The Truth is that Self is constant and unintermittent Awareness. The object of enquiry is to find the true nature of the Self as Awareness. Let one practise enquiry so long as separateness is perceived. If once realisation arises there is no further need for enquiry. The question will also not arise. Can awareness ever think of questioning who is aware? Awareness remains pure and simple. The enquirer is aware of his own individuality. Enquiry does not stand in the way of his individual awareness; nor does external work interfere with such awareness. If work, seemingly external, does not obstruct the individual awareness, will the work, realised to be not separate from the Self, obstruct the uninterrupted Awareness of the Self, which is One without a second and which is not an individual separate from work?

When I try to meditate, I am unable to do so because my mind wanders. What should I do?

Devotee:   When I try to meditate, I am unable to do so because my mind wanders. What should I do?

Ramana Maharishi:  Your question furnishes the answer. First, with regard to the first part of the question, you say you concentrate, but do not succeed. ‘You’ means ‘the Self’. On what do you concentrate? Where do you fail? Are there two selves, for the one self to concentrate on the other? Which is the self now complaining of failure? There cannot be two selves. There is only one Self. That need not concentrate. You ask, “But then, why is there no happiness?” What is it that prevents you from remaining as the spirit which you are in sleep? You yourself admit that it is the wandering mind. Find out the mind. If its ‘wandering’ stops, it will be found to be the Self - your ‘I’- consciousness which is spirit eternal. It is beyond knowledge and ignorance

That which is real must be real for ever.

Ramana Maharishi:  You create a dream body for yourself in the dream and act with that dream-body. The same is falsified in the waking state. At present you think that youare this body and not the dream-body. In your dream this body is falsified by the dream-body. So that, you see, neither of these bodies is real. Because each of them is true for a time and false at other times. That which is real must be real for ever. But you say ‘I’. This ‘I’-consciousness is present all through the three states. There is no change in it. That is alone real. The three states are false. They are only for the mind. It is the mind which obstructs your vision of your true nature. Your true nature is that of infinite spirit. That was the case in your sleep. You note the limitations in the other two states. What is the difference due to? There was no mind in sleep, but it exists in the dream and the waking states. The feeling of limitation is the work of the mind. What is mind? Find it. If you search for it, it will vanish by itself. For it has no real existence. It is comprised of thoughts. It disappears with the cessation of thoughts.

The Self is changeless. It is the ego that has come between.

Devotee:  I do not know if the Self is different from the ego.

Ramana Maharishi:  How were you in your deep sleep?

Devotee:  I do not know.

Ramana Maharishi:  Who does not know? Is it not the waking Self? Do you deny your existence in your deep sleep?

Devotee:  I was and I am; but I do not know who was in deep sleep.

Ramana Maharishi:  Exactly. The man awake says that he did not know anything in the state of sleep. Now he sees the objects and knows that he is there; whereas in deep sleep there were no objects, no spectator, etc. The same one who is now speaking was in deep sleep also. What is the difference between these two states? There are objects and play of senses now which were not in sleep. A new entity, the ego, has risen up in the meantime, it plays through the senses, sees the objects, confounds itself with the body and says that the Self is the ego. In reality, what was in deep sleep continues to exist now too. The Self is changeless. It is the ego that has come between. That which rises and sets is the ego; that which remains changeless is the Self.

Seeking it (the seer within) there all other thoughts centred round the ego will disappear along with it.

Ramana Maharishi:  For anything external to oneself implies the seer within. Seeking it there will arise no doubt, no fear - not only fear, all other thoughts centred round the ego will disappear along with it.

You are Self, whereas the thoughts are alien to the Self.

Devotee:   But are not creative thoughts an aspect of Realisation and therefore helpful?

Ramana Maharishi:  Helpful only in the way said before. They must all disappear in the Self. Thoughts, good or bad, take you farther and not nearer, because the Self is more intimate than thoughts. You are Self, whereas the thoughts are alien to the Self.

Vritti jnana (subjective modification of the mind) alone can destroy ‘ajnana’ (ignorance)

Ramana Maharishi: …….Vritti jnana alone can destroy ‘ajnana’ (ignorance). Absolute jnana is not inimical to ajnana. There are two kinds of vrittis (modes of mind). (1) vishaya vritti (objective) and (2) atma vritti (subjective). The first must give place to the second. That is the aim of abhyasa (practice), which takes one first to the puriashtaka and then to the One Self.  Vritti-jnanam is usually associated with objective phenomena. When these cease there remains the atma-vritti or the subjective vritti that is the same as jnanam. Without it ajnanam will not cease. The puriashtaka also will not be found associated with anything outside, and the Self will shine forth uniform and harmonious.

It (Jnanam) is being aware of That which always is.

Ramana Maharishi:  …...It is said that awaking from ignorance is like awaking from a fearful  dream of a beast. It is thus. There are two taints of mind, namely veiling and restlessness (avarana and vikshepa). Of the two, the former is evil, the latter is not so. So long as the veiling effect of sleep persists there is the frightful dream; on awaking the veiling ceases; and there is no more fear. Restlessness is not a bar to happiness. To get rid of the restlessness caused by the world, one seeks the restlessness (activity) of being with the Guru, studying the sacred books and worshipping God with forms, and by these awakening is attained.  What happens in the end? Karna was ever the son of Kunti. The tenth man was such all along. Rama was Vishnu all the time. Such is jnanam. It is being aware of That which always is.

How is the mind to be steadily kept right?

Devotee:  How is the mind to be steadily kept right?

Ramana Maharishi:  All living beings are aware of their surroundings and therefore intellect must be surmised in all of them. At the same time, there is a difference between the intellect of man and that of other animals, because man not only sees the world as it is and acts accordingly, but also seeks fulfilment of desires and is not satisfied with the existing state of affairs. In his attempt to fulfil his desires he extends his vision far and wide and yet he turns away dissatisfied. He now begins to think and reason. The desire for permanency of happiness and of peace bespeaks such permanency in his own nature. Therefore he seeks to find and regain his own nature, i.e., his Self. That found, all is found. Such inward seeking is the path to be gained by man’s intellect. The intellect itself realises after continuous practice that it is enabled by some Higher Power to function. It cannot itself reach that Power.  So it ceases to function after a certain stage. When it thus ceases to function the Supreme Power is still left there all alone. That is Realisation; that is the finality; that is the goal. It is thus plain that the purpose of the intellect is to realise its own dependence upon the Higher Power and its inability to reach the same. So it must annihilate itself before the goal is gained.

Why the mind cannot be turned inward in spite of repeated attempts?

Devotee:  Why the mind cannot be turned inward in spite of repeated attempts?

Ramana Maharishi:  It is done by practice and dispassion and that succeeds only gradually. The mind, having been so long a cow accustomed to graze stealthily on others’ estates, is not easily confined to her stall. However much her keeper tempts her with luscious grass and fine fodder, she refuses the first time; then she takes a bit; but her innate tendency to stray away asserts itself; and she slips away; on being repeatedly tempted by the owner, she accustoms herself to the stall; finally even if let loose she would not stray away. Similarly with the mind. If once it finds its inner happiness it will not wander outward.

How do you meditate?

Ramana Maharishi:  How do you meditate?

Devotee:  I begin to ask myself “Who am I?”, eliminate body as not ‘I’, the breath as not ‘I’, the mind as not ‘I’ and I am not able to proceed further.

Ramana Maharishi:  Well, that is so far as the intellect goes. Your process is only intellectual. Indeed, all the scriptures mention the process only to guide the seeker to know the Truth. The Truth cannot be directly pointed out. Hence this intellectual process. You see, the one who eliminates all the not I cannot eliminate the ‘I’. To say ‘I am not this’ or ‘I am that’ there must be the ‘I’. This ‘I’ is only the ego or the ‘I-thought’. After the rising up of this ‘I-thought’, all other thoughts arise. The ‘I-thought’ is therefore the root-thought. If the root is pulled out all others are at the same time uprooted. Therefore seek the root ‘I’, question yourself “Who am I?”; find out its source. Then all these will vanish and the pure Self will remain ever.

Devotee:  How to do it?

Ramana Maharishi:  The ‘I’ is always there - in deep sleep, in dream and in wakefulness. The one in sleep is the same as that who now speaks. There is always the feeling of ‘I’. Otherwise do you deny your existence? You do not. You say ‘I am’. Find out who is.

Devotee:  Even so, I do not understand. ‘I’, you say, is the wrong ‘I’ now. How to eliminate this wrong ‘I’?


Ramana Maharishi:  You need not eliminate the wrong ‘I’. How can ‘I’ eliminate itself? All that you need do is to find out its origin and abide there. Your efforts can extend only thus far. Then the Beyond will take care of itself. You are helpless there. No effort can reach it.

Devotee:  If ‘I’ am always - here and now, why do I not feel so?

Ramana Maharishi:  That is it. Who says it is not felt? Does the real ‘I’ say it or the false ‘I’? Examine it. You will find it is the wrong ‘I’. The wrong ‘I’ is the obstruction. It has to be removed in order that the true ‘I’ may not be hidden. The feeling that I have not realised is the obstruction to realisation. In fact it is already realised; there is nothing more to be realised. Otherwise, the realisation will be new; it has not existed so far, it must take place hereafter. What is born will also die. If realisation be not eternal it is not worth having. Therefore what we seek is not that which must happen afresh. It is only that which is eternal but not now known due to obstructions; it is that we seek. All that we need do is to remove the obstruction. That which is eternal is not known to be so because of ignorance. Ignorance is the obstruction. Get over this ignorance and all will be well.  The ignorance is identical with the ‘I-thought’. Find its source and it will vanish. The ‘I-thought’ is like a spirit which, although not palpable, rises up simultaneously with the body, flourishes and disappears with it. The body-consciousness is the wrong ‘I’. Give up this body consciousness. It is done by seeking the source ‘I’. The body does not say ‘I am’. It is you who say, ‘I am the body!’ Find out who this ‘I’ is. Seeking its source it will vanish.

Devotee:  Then, will there be bliss?

Ramana Maharishi:  Bliss is coeval with Being-Consciousness. All the arguments relating to the eternal Being of that Bliss apply to Bliss also. Your nature is Bliss. Ignorance is now hiding that Bliss. Remove the ignorance for Bliss to be freed.

Devotee:  Should we not find out the ultimate reality of the world, individual and God?

Ramana Maharishi:  These are all conceptions of the ‘I’. They arise only after the advent of the ‘I-thought’. Did you think of them in your deep sleep? You existed in deep sleep and the same you are now speaking. If they be real should they not be in your sleep also? They are only dependent upon the ‘I-thought’. Again does the world tell you ‘I am the world’? Does the body say ‘I am body’? You say, “This is the world”, “this is body” and so on. So these are only your conceptions. Find out who you are and there will be an end of all your doubts.

Devotee:  What becomes of the body after realisation? Does it exist or not? We see realised beings acting like others.

Ramana Maharishi:  This question need not arise now. Let it be asked after realisation, if need be. As for the realised beings let them take care of themselves. Why do you worry about them? In fact, after realisation the body and all else will not appear different from the Self.

Devotee:  Being always Being-Consciousness-Bliss, why does God place us in difficulties? Why did He create us?

Ramana Maharishi:  Does God come and tell you that He has placed you in difficulties? It is you who say so. It is again the wrong ‘I’. If that disappears there will be no one to say that God created this or that. That which is does not even say ‘I am’. For, does any doubt rise that ‘I am not’? Only in such a case should one be reminding oneself ‘I am a man’. One does not. On the other hand, if a doubt arises whether he is a cow or a buffalo he has to remind himself that he is not a cow, etc., but ‘I am a man.’ This would never happen. Similarly with one’s own existence and realisation.

The mind is only a bundle of thoughts. The thoughts arise because there is the thinker.

A devotee was stricken with grief due to bereavement of wife and children. He sought peace of mind and asked how to get it.

Ramana Maharishi:  It is in the mind that birth and death, pleasure and pain, in short the world and ego exist. If the mind is destroyed all these are destroyed too. Note that it should be annihilated, not just made latent. For the mind is dormant in sleep. It does not know anything. Still, on waking up, you are as you were before. There is no end of grief. But if the mind be destroyed the grief will have no background and will disappear along with the mind.

Devotee:  How to destroy the mind?

Ramana Maharishi:  Seek the mind. On being sought, it will disappear.

Devotee:  I do not understand.

Ramana Maharishi:  The mind is only a bundle of thoughts. The thoughts arise because there is the thinker. The thinker is the ego. The ego, if sought, will vanish automatically. The ego and the mind are the same. The ego is the root-thought from which all other thoughts arise.

Devotee:  How to seek the mind?

Ramana Maharishi:  Dive within. You are now aware that the mind rises up from within. So sink within and seek.

Devotee:  I do not yet understand how it is to be done.

Ramana Maharishi:  You are practising breath-control. Mechanical breath-control will not lead one to the goal. It is only an aid. While doing it mechanically take care to be alert in mind and remember the ‘I’ thought and seek its source. Then you will find that where breath sinks, there ‘I-thought’ arises. They sink and rise together. The ‘I-thought’ also will sink along with breath. Simultaneously, another luminous and infinite ‘I-I’ will become manifest, which will be continuous and unbroken. That is the goal. It goes by different names - God, Self, Kundalini Sakti, Consciousness, Yoga, Bhakti, Jnana, etc.

Devotee:  Not clear yet.

Ramana Maharishi:  When the attempt is made, it will of itself take you to the goal.

What is jnana-marga?

Devotee:  What is jnana-marga?

Ramana Maharishi:  What is jnana? Jnana means realisation of the Truth. It is done by dhyana. Dhyana helps you to hold on to Truth to the exclusion of all thoughts.

The other methods also will ultimately lead everyone to this method of the investigation of the Self.

Ramana Maharishi:  The other methods are meant for those who cannot take to the investigation of the Self. Even to repeat Aham Brahmasmi or think of it, a doer is necessary. Who is it? It is ‘I’. Be that ‘I’. It is the direct method. The other methods also will ultimately lead everyone to this method of the investigation of the Self.

All thoughts are from the unreal ‘I’. i.e., the ‘I’- thought.

Devotee was asked to say what exactly was his method of meditation. He said: “Aham Brahmasmi” (“I am Brahman”).

Ramana Maharishi:  “I am Brahman” is only a thought. Who says it? Brahman itself does not say so. What need is there for it to say it? Nor can the real ‘I’ say so. For ‘I’ always abides as Brahman. To be saying it is only a thought. Whose thought is it? All thoughts are from the unreal ‘I’. i.e., the ‘I’- thought. Remain without thinking. So long as there is thought there will be fear.

Dhyana is to keep the mind active in its own pursuit without taking in external impressions or thinking of other matters.

Ramana Maharishi:  The main factor in dhyana is to keep the mind active in its own pursuit without taking in external impressions or thinking of other matters.

Happiness is born of Peace. Peace can reign only when there is no disturbance.

Devotee:  Does the sage use occult powers for making others realise the Self or is the mere fact of his Self-Realisation enough for it?

Ramana Maharishi:  The force of his Self-Realisation is far more powerful than the use of all other powers. Inasmuch as there is no ego in him, there are not others for him.

What is the highest benefit that can be conferred on others? It is happiness. Happiness is born of Peace. Peace can reign only when there is no disturbance. Disturbance is due to thoughts which arise in the mind. When the mind itself is absent there will be perfect Peace. Unless a person had annihilated his mind he cannot gain peace and be happy. Unless he himself is happy he cannot bestow happiness on others. When there is no mind he cannot be aware of others. So the mere fact of his Self-Realisation is itself enough to make all others happy.

The one who has given up the idea of being the doer cannot repeat, “This is my prarabdha”

Devotee:  Samskaras are said to persist even in a Jnani.

Ramana Maharishi:  Yes. They are bhoga hetu (leading to enjoyment only) and not bandha hetu.

Devotee:  This fact is often abused by fakes who pretend to be sadhus but lead vicious lives. They say it is prarabdha (remnant of past Karma). How shall we mark off the fakes from the genuine sadhus?

Ramana Maharishi:  The one who has given up the idea of being the doer cannot repeat, “This is my prarabdha”. “The jnanis lead different lives” is said for the benefit of others. The jnanis cannot make use of this in explanation of their lives and conduct.

With right knowledge, the ego is nowhere and only you remain as the SELF.”

Ramana Maharishi:   Nammalvar says: “In ignorance I took the ego to be myself; however, with right knowledge, the ego is nowhere and only you remain as the SELF.”

Prajnana (Absolute Knowledge) is always shining even in sleep

Ramana Maharishi:  Prajnana (Absolute Knowledge) is that from which vijnana (relative knowledge) proceeds.

Devotee:  In the state of vijnana one becomes aware of the samvit (cosmic intelligence). But is that suddha samvit aware by itself without the aid of antahkaranas (inner organs)?

Ramana Maharishi:  It is so, even logically.

Devotee:  Becoming aware of samvit in jagrat by vijnana, prajnana is not found self-shining. If so, it must be found in sleep.

Ramana Maharishi:  The awareness is at present through antahkaranas. Prajnana is always shining even in sleep. If one is continuously aware in jagrat the awareness will continue in sleep also
Moreover, it is illustrated thus: A king comes into the hall, sits there and then leaves the place. He did not go into the kitchen. Can one in the kitchen for that reason say, “The king did not come here”? When awareness is found in jagrat it must also be in sleep.

How is an avatar different from a Jnani; or how can there be an avatar as distinct from the universe?

Devotee:  The avatars are said to be more glorious than the self-realised jnanis. Maya does not affect them from birth; divine powers are manifest; new religions are started; and so on.

Ramana Maharishi:  (1) “Jnani tvatmaiva me matam.” (2) “Sarvam khalvidam brahma.” How is an avatar different from a Jnani; or how can there be an avatar as distinct from the universe?

Their purpose is to know the Truth. The purpose having been gained, there is no use engaging in studies.

Asked if Sri Bhagavan had read Kamba Ramayana,

Sri Bhagavan said: No. I have not read anything. All my learning is limited to what I learnt before my 14th year. Since then I have had no inclination to read or learn. People wonder how I speak of Bhagavad Gita, etc. It is due to hearsay. I have not read Gita nor waded through commentaries for its meaning. When I hear a sloka I think that its meaning is clear and I say it. That is all and nothing more. Similarly with my other quotations. They come out naturally. I realise that the Truth is beyond speech and intellect. Why then should I project the mind to read, understand and repeat stanzas, etc.? Their purpose is to know the Truth. The purpose having been gained, there is no use engaging in studies.

Ajnani thinks dehaiva Atma (only the body is myself), whereas the Jnani knows all is of the Self (Atmamayam sarvam),

Ramana Maharishi:  Karma is posited as past karma, etc., prarabdha, agami and sanchita. There must be kartritva (doership) and karta (doer) for it. Karma (action) cannot be for the body because it is insentient. It is only so long as dehatma buddhi (‘I-am-the-body idea’) lasts. After transcending dehatma buddhi one becomes a Jnani. In the absence of that idea (buddhi) there cannot be either kartritva or karta. So a Jnani has no karma. That is his experience. Otherwise he is not a Jnani. However an ajnani identifies the Jnani with his body, which the Jnani does not do. So the ajnani finds the Jnani acting, because his body is active, and therefore he asks if the Jnani is not affected by prarabdha.

Devotee:  Is there no dehatma buddhi (I-am-the-body idea) for the Jnani? If, for instance, Sri Bhagavan be bitten by an insect, is there no sensation?

Ramana Maharishi:  There is the sensation and there is also the dehatma buddhi. The latter is common to both Jnani and ajnani with this difference, that the ajnani thinks dehaiva Atma (only the body is myself), whereas the Jnani knows all is of the Self (Atmamayam sarvam), or (sarvam khalvidam Brahma) all this is Brahma. If there be pain let it be. It is also part of the Self. The Self is poorna (perfect).

Contemplation is a forced mental process, whereas samadhi lies beyond effort.

Devotee:  I maintain that the physical body of the man sunk in samadhi as a result of unbroken contemplation of the Self becomes motionless for that reason. It may be active or inactive. The mind fixed in such contemplation will not be affected by the body or the senses being restless. A disturbance of the mind is not always the forerunner of physical activity. Another man asserts that physical unrest certainly prevents nirvikalpa samadhi or unbroken contemplation. What is your opinion? You are the standing proof of my statement.

Ramana Maharishi:  Both of you are right, you refer to sahaja nirvikalpa and the other refers to kevala nirvikalpa. In the one case the mind lies immersed in the Light of the Self (whereas the same lies in the darkness of ignorance in deep sleep). The subject discriminates one from the other - samadhi, stirring up from samadhi, and activity thereafter, unrest of the body, of the sight of the vital force and of the mind, the cognizance of objects and activity, are all obstructions for him. In sahaja, however, the mind has resolved itself into the Self and has been lost. Differences and obstructions mentioned above do not therefore exist here. The activities of such a being are like the feeding of a somnolent boy, perceptible to the onlooker (but not to the subject). The driver sleeping on his moving cart is not aware of the motion of the cart, because his mind is sunk in darkness. Similarly the sahaja Jnani remains unaware of his bodily activities because his mind is dead - having been resolved in the ecstasy of Chit Ananda (Self). The two words contemplation and samadhi have been used loosely in the question. Contemplation is a forced mental process, whereas samadhi lies beyond effort.

Sri Ramakrishna prepared Vivekananda. What is the power behind?

Devotee:  Sri Ramakrishna prepared Vivekananda. What is the power behind?

Ramana Maharishi:  The power is only one in all.

Devotee:  What is the nature of that force?

Ramana Maharishi:  Just like iron filings drawn towards a magnet, the force is inside and not outside. Ramakrishna was in Vivekananda. If you think Vivekananda to be a body, Ramakrishna also is a body. But they are not bodies. Vivekananda could not go into Samadhi had not Ramakrishna been within him.

There is no difference in their wisdom (jnana) of liberated souls

Devotee:  Are jivanmuktas (living liberated souls) of different kinds?

Ramana Maharishi:  What does it matter if they differ externally? There is no difference in their wisdom (jnana).

Incidents interest a child only so long as they last......So it is with a Sage.

Ramana Maharishi:  A child and a Sage (Jnani) are similar in a way. Incidents interest a child only so long as they last. It ceases to think of them after they have passed away. So then, it is apparent that they do not leave any impression on the child and it is not affected by them mentally. So it is with a Sage.

Japa means clinging to one thought to the exclusion of all other thoughts; it leads to dhyana which ends in Self-Realisation.

Devotee:  While making nama-japa and after continuing it for an hour or more I fall into a state like sleep. On waking up, I recollect that my japa has been interrupted. So I proceed again.

Ramana Maharishi:  “Like sleep.” That is right. It is the natural state. Because you are now associated with the ego you consider the natural state to be something which interrupts your work. You must repeat the experience until you realise that it is your natural state. You will then find that japa, etc., is extraneous. Still, it will be going on automatically. Your present doubt is due to the false identity. Japa means clinging to one thought to the exclusion of all other thoughts. That is the purpose of japa; it leads to dhyana which ends in Self-Realisation.

The Highest Form of Grace is Silence (mowna). It is also the highest upadesa.

Devotee:  Is it the mind of the Guru acting on the mind of the disciple or anything different?

Ramana Maharishi:  The Highest Form of Grace is Silence (mowna). It is also the  highest upadesa.

Are there two ‘I’s

Devotee:  Is there any use of the man of Realisation for the seeker?

Ramana Maharishi:  Yes. He helps you to get rid of your delusion that you are not realised.

Devotee:   So, tell me how.

Ramana Maharishi:  The paths are meant only to de-hypnotise the individual.

Devotee:   De-hypnotise me. Tell me what method to follow.

Ramana Maharishi:  Where are you now? Where should you go?

Devotee:   I know ‘I am’; but I do not know what I am.

Ramana Maharishi:  Are there two ‘I’s then?

Devotee:   It is begging the question.

Ramana Maharishi:  Who says this? Is it the one who is, or is it the other who does not know what he is?

Devotee:   I am, but do not know what or how?

Ramana Maharishi:  ‘I’ is always there.

Devotee:   Does the ‘I’ undergo any transformation, say in death?

Ramana Maharishi:  Who witnesses the transformation?

God, Guru and Self are only different forms of the same.

Devotee:  Grace was said to be the Self. Should I then surrender to my own Self?

Ramana Maharishi:  Yes. To the one from whom Grace is sought. God, Guru and Self are only different forms of the same.

Devotee:  Please explain, so that I may understand.

Ramana Maharishi:  So long as you think you are the individual you believe in God. On worshipping God, God appears to you as Guru. On serving Guru He manifests as the Self. This is the rationale.

The best is heart to heart speech and heart to heart hearing. That is the best upadesa.

Ramana Maharishi: The best is heart to heart speech and heart to heart hearing. That is the best upadesa.

Devotee:  Is not guidance from Guru necessary?

Ramana Maharishi:  Are you apart from Guru?

Devotee: Is proximity helpful?

Ramana Maharishi:  Do you mean physical proximity? What is the good of it? The mind alone matters. The mind must be contacted.

What are the aids for realisation?

Devotee:  What are the aids for realisation?

Ramana Maharishi:  The teachings of the Scriptures and of realised souls

Devotee:   Can such teachings be discussions, lectures and meditations?

Ramana Maharishi:  Yes, all these are only secondary aids, whereas the essential is the Master’s grace.

Devotee:   How long will it take for one to get that?

Ramana Maharishi:  Why do you desire to know?

Devotee:   To give me hope.

Ramana Maharishi:  Even such a desire is an obstacle. The Self is ever there, there is nothing without it. Be the Self and the desires and doubts will disappear. Such Self is the witness in sleep, dream and waking states of existence.

Visions of God have their place below the plane of Self-Realisation.

Devotee:  What is the relation between Brahman and Isvara?

Ramana Maharishi:  Brahman is called Isvara in relation to the world.

Devotee:  Is it possible to speak to Isvara as Sri Ramakrishna did?

Ramana Maharishi:  When we can speak to each other why should we not speak to Isvara in the
same way?

Devotee:  Then why does it not happen with us?

Ramana Maharishi:  It requires purity and strength of mind and practice in meditation.

Devotee:  Does God become evident if the above conditions exist?

Ramana Maharishi:  Such manifestations are as real as your own reality. In other words, when you identify yourself with the body as in jagrat you see gross objects; when in subtle body or in mental plane as in svapna, you see objects equally subtle; in the absence of identification as in sushupti you see nothing. The objects seen bear a relation to the state of the seer. The same applies to visions of God. By long practice the figure of God, as meditated upon, appears in dream and may later appear in jagrat also.
…..
Visions of God have their place below the plane of Self-Realisation.

There are many process of creation. Which of them is true?

Devotee:  There is one process of creation mentioned in the Upanishads and another in Puranas. Which of them is true?

Ramana Maharishi:  They are many, and meant to indicate that the creation has a cause  and a creator should be posited so that one might seek the cause. The emphasis is on the purpose of the theory and not on the process of creation. Moreover, the creation is perceived by someone. There are no objects without the subject, i.e., the objects do not come and tell you that they are, but it is you who says that there are the objects. The objects are therefore what the seer makes of them. They have no existence independent of the subject. Find out what you are and then you understand what the world is. That is the object of the theory.

Devotee:  The soul is only a small particle whereas the creation is so huge. How can we surmise it?

Ramana Maharishi:  The particle speaks of the huge creation; where is the contradiction?  There are so many theories, scriptural and scientific. Have they reached any finality? They cannot. Brahman is said to be subtler than the subtlest, wider than the widest. Anu is an atom, infinitesimal. It ends in subtle perception. The subtlety is of the sukshma body, i.e., the mind. Beyond the mind there is the Self. The greatest of things are also conceptions, the conceptions are of the mind; beyond the mind there is the Self. So the Self is subtler than the subtlest. There may be any number of theories of creation. All of them extend  outwardly. There will be no limit to them because time and space are unlimited. They are however only in the mind. See the mind; time and space are transcended and the Self is realised. Creation is explained scientifically or logically to one’s own satisfaction. But is there any finality about it? Such explanations are called krama srishti (gradual creation). On the other hand, drishti srishti (simultaneous or sudden creation) is yugapad srishti. Without the seer there are no objects seen. Find the seer and the creation is comprised in him. Why look outward and go on explaining the phenomena which are endless?

Some people are attracted to one place of pilgrimage and others to another. Is it according to their temperaments?

Devotee:  Some people are attracted to one place of pilgrimage and others to another. Is it according to their temperaments?

Ramana Maharishi:  Yes. Just consider how all of you born in different places and living in other lands are gathered here today? What is the Force which has attracted you here? If this is understood the other Force is also understood.

The self-evident ‘I’, ignoring the Self, goes about seeking to know the non-Self. How absurd!

Devotee:  Idol worship does not seem good. They worship the formless God in Islam.

Ramana Maharishi:  What is their conception of God?

Devotee:  As Immanence, etc.

Ramana Maharishi:  Is not God even then endowed with attributes? Form is only one kind of attribute. One cannot worship God without some notions. Any bhavana premises a God with attributes (saguna). Moreover, where is the use of discussing the form or formlessness of God? Find out if you have a form. You can then understand God.

Devotee:  I admit I have no form.

Ramana Maharishi:  All right. You have no form in sleep, but in the waking state you identify yourself with a form. See which is your real state. That is understood to be without form on investigation. If you know your Self to be formless by your jnana, should you not concede the same amount of jnana to God and understand Him to be formless?

Devotee:  But there is the world for God.

Ramana Maharishi:  How does the world appear? How are we? Knowing this, you know God. You will know if He is Siva, or Vishnu or any other or all put together.

Devotee:  Is Vaikuntha in Paramapada, i.e., in the transcendent Self?

Ramana Maharishi:  Where is Paramapada or Vaikuntha unless in you?

Devotee:  Vaikuntha, etc., appear involuntarily.

Ramana Maharishi:  Does this world appear voluntarily?
The questioner returned no answer.

Ramana Maharishi:  The self-evident ‘I’, ignoring the Self, goes about seeking to know the non-Self. How absurd!

Devotee:  This is Samkhya Yoga. Being the culmination of all kinds of other yogas, how can it be understood to start with? Is not bhakti antecedent to it?

Ramana Maharishi:  Has not Sri Krishna started the Gita with Sankhya?

Devotee:  Yes. I understand it now.

I have faith in murti dhyana (worship of form). Will it not help me to gain jnana?

Devotee:  I have faith in murti dhyana (worship of form). Will it not help me to gain jnana?

Ramana Maharishi:  Surely it will. Upasana helps concentration of mind. Then the mind is free from other thoughts and is full of the meditated form. The mind becomes it - and thus quite pure. Then think who is the worshipper. The answer is ‘I’, i.e., the Self. So the Self is gained ultimately.

The fact is that God is all. There is nothing apart from Him.

Devotee:  Brahman is the one by whom all this is pervaded (yena sarvamidam thatham). But then how does Sri Krishna specify the vibhutis in Chapter X of Bhagavad Gita?

Ramana Maharishi:  The specifications are in reply to a definite question by Arjuna who required to know the Lord’s vibhutis for convenience of worship (upasana soukaryam). The fact is that God is all. There is nothing apart from Him.

Vichara (self-enquiry) is the ultimate route

Devotee:   Do we not see God in concrete form?

Ramana Maharishi:  Yes. God is seen in the mind. The concrete form may be seen. Still it is only in the devotee’s mind. The form and appearance of God-manifestation are determined by the mind of the devotee. But it is not the finality. There is the sense of duality. It is like a dream-vision. After God is perceived, vichara commences. That ends in Realisation of the Self. Vichara is the ultimate route. Of course, a few find vichara practicable. Others find bhakti easier.

Devotee:  Did not Mr. Brunton find you in London? Was it only a dream?

Ramana Maharishi:  Yes. He had the vision. He saw me in his mind.

Devotee:  Did he not see this concrete form?

Ramana Maharishi:  Yes, still in his mind.

Long for it intensely so that the mind melts in devotion

Ramana Maharishi:  Long for it intensely so that the mind melts in devotion. After the camphor burns away no residue is left. The mind is the camphor; when it has resolved itself into the Self without leaving even the slightest trace behind, it is Realisation of the Self.

The Be-ing is in all cases real.

Mr. P. Brunton, while reading Upadesa Manjari, came across the statement that the ego, the world and God are all unreal. He desired to use a different word for God or at least a qualifying adjective, e.g., the Creative Force or personal God.

Sri Bhagavan explained that God means SAMASHTI - i.e., all that is, plus the Be-ing - in the same way as ‘I’ means the individual plus the Be-ing, and the world means the variety plus Be-ing. The Be-ing is in all cases real. The all, the variety and the individual is in each case unreal. So also in the union of the real and the unreal, the mixing up or the false identification is wrong. It amounts to saying sad-asadvilakshana, i.e., transcending the real and the unreal - sat and asat. Reality is that which transcends all concepts, including that of God. Inasmuch as the name of God is used, it cannot be true. The Hebrew word Jehovah = (I am) expresses God correctly. Absolute Be-ing is beyond expression.  The word cannot be replaced nor need it be replaced.

Is the Universal Soul (Paramatma) always different from us?

Devotee:  Is the Universal Soul (Paramatma) always different from us?

Ramana Maharishi:  That is the common belief, but it is wrong. Think of Him as not different from you, and then you achieve identity of Self with God.

Is it not possible to get a vision of God?

Devotee:  Is it not possible to get a vision of God?

Ramana Maharishi:  Yes. You see this and that. Why not see God? Only you must know what God is. All are seeing God always. But they do not know it. You find out what God is. People see, yet see not, because they know not God